0:49

Welcome, everyone, to another episode of the Music Ghost Stories podcast. Man, I've missed you guys. Baby Donnie turned one whole year old not too long ago. Man, does time fly. today we have a very fascinating discussion lined up with our special guest, Jason Moss. Before we get into it, though, let's explore another mystery sound. Today's sound is based off of something really special, the Shepard Scale. The Shepard Scale, named after cognitive scientist Roger Shepard, is an auditory illusion consisting of a series of tones that seem to continually ascend(or descend) in pitch, yet never actually get higher or lower. It's often described as a'sonic barber's pole. Okay, I'm going to play for you the sound of a guitar tuning. Alright, now I'm going to play the same thing, just twice in a row. Oh, God, if you're a guitarist. That's gotta be cringey. You're just waiting for a string to just snap and break. Uh, or maybe you just feel some sort of anticipation, even if you're not a guitar player, Just because it's ascending continually, but it's pretty mind bending. Isn't it? It's fascinating how our brains can be tricked by such auditory illusions. And it's a great reminder of the complexity and wander of sound. Okay. Hop in. Today's episode, we delve into a story that truly embodies the spirit of'music goes stories. Music producer J Moss was given an extraordinary task by the family of his late friend, Tim Landers. To bring Tim's unfinished music to life. Using the files Tim had recorded on his computer. before he passed. What unfolds is more than just an album. It's the echo of Tim's voice, preserved. And re-imagined. Each track is a haunting reminder. Of the connection between past and present. A Testament to how music can carry the essence of those. We've lost. This is not just music. It's a spectral conversation between two different worlds. Let's dive in.

Donny: 3:50

Jason, welcome to the podcast.

Jay: 3:52

Thanks man, thanks for having me.

Donny: 3:53

You wanna tell everyone a little bit about who you are? Just give your story?

Jay: 4:09

Wanting to be a professional skateboarder and that going awry then going with my backup plan, which was music and then from there I did the Berklee College of Music summer sessions. Then I went to Berklee College of Music for one day and dropped out during orientation, and then later in life in my 20s, combined my passion for computer science, technology, and music all together, and built a recording studio. From there, I started a band called Defeater, and I did that band for about eight years. We did the whole roller coaster of, getting signed and touring Europe and we eventually signed Epitaph Records, which was always a dream. And then, uh, one day on tour in 2015, i, went to an after party in Sydney, Australia, and I met who would become my wife, Jessie, and the mother of my child. As soon as I could, I imported her to America. And, so far we're living happily ever after. And we've got an eight year old. And, yeah, my day to day, man, is I, I produce bands. I mix and master, I also I run a company called Moster. io, which is, a cloud based AI mastering and MixNote collaboration service. That's awesome. I also run, an audio mentoring program where I hold a handful of engineers that I take from the ground up. Guys who aren't quite where they want to be yet, I show them the ropes and get them to where they want to be.

Donny: 5:32

You wanna elaborate a little bit more on your introduction to music? Before Berklee? What inspired you musically?

Jay: 5:38

Yeah, so what inspired me musically, truthfully, early on, was If we're talking like rock music, I think like most nine year olds, I listened to just sort of like whatever is popular at the time, but somewhere around 11, I got introduced to Nirvana, Nevermind, in 1991. There was a small department store chain called Leechmere, which is long defunct. You could think of it as like bad Walmart or something but they had like This music area like an fye or any other thing like that so I went in there and up until I was 11, I Listened to rap music. I had moved to massachusetts from la I was into rap music and I tried to get my mom to let me buy On cassette the soundtrack for the movie soundtrack for the movie juice starring Tupac Shakur and She looked at it and went I don't know and on the end cap there was nirvana Never mind the the blue like pool photo with the baby swimming after the dollar And for some reason she was like, what about this? And I normally would have been like no way my mom is recommending something. So that's just like an immediate. No one day, I hope the person I'm about to talk about here's one of these podcasts and laughs their ass off. But there was a girl in my school that I thought was cool and cute. Her name is Kate Emerson and, hi Kate. And we're both in sixth grade at lunch. She was talking about how cool Nirvana was. And so I'd forgotten. And then my mom points to. This end cap that has the Nirvana tape. And I thought to myself, Oh my God, yeah, I'm going to get this. And then I'm going to listen to it a jillion times. And then I get to go in and be like, Hey, Kate, like I like Nirvana too. And so we got it. And so we just started playing it in the car. That matters. I just like. I was like, Oh, this actually is awesome. Like I, I loved the energy, especially at that age, I've mentioned skateboarding and I was skating every day and it was like a great soundtrack to, being out and skating. And just I loved the attitude and everything, 11 is probably right around where one really starts to like put a lot of energy into forming what they'll consider their identity for a while. Or like the external factors that we. associate ourselves with to create identity. So it started being like rock, like aggressive music and skateboarding all together. And yeah, the first time I listened to it was, you know, 10 minutes after I bought it. Once we checked out, walked across the parking lot and got into my mom's, I believe it was like an old, like gross Pontiac Firebird with T Tops, a red Pontiac Firebird with T Tops

Donny: 8:14

I don't think I've ever met someone where I'm like, dude, how did you discover Nirvana? And they're like, oh, my mom recommended it

Jay: 8:20

it to me. Yeah, for sure.

Donny: 8:21

That's interesting, You When you mentioned that when you're coming up, you're sort of identifying with the music that you select. And just like, with Nirvana, you mentioned your outfit and you mentioned activities like skateboarding. That's cool. When my son was born, I've seen him react to music before he even understands, what's going on around him. He doesn't even understand the world, but when he hears something that he likes, he reacts to it. And I was like, oh, I thought music was different than this. I thought music was nirvana and skateboarding and flannel t shirts, there might be things that we don't remember, but, your father, Do you remember a specific time when maybe your son reacted? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Jay: 9:09

but, actually, but he, just last week, one or two weeks ago, he went to his first concert that like he wanted to go to. Mind you, I've been dragging my son to all kinds of like, Really cool punk and hardcore concerts that he has no interest of being at like we he went to like the Bain reunion He went to see Touche Amore and La Dispute, right? He's like gone to all of these crazy shows and he thinks they're Exceptionally boring and lame and which is just really funny and Alan Day from Four Year Strong like picked him up from daycare once and he's just like, who's this? I could care less, so I find that very funny, but he went for his music. He's seven turning eight in a couple months. He went to see, Imagine Dragons, and he got dripped out in Imagine Dragons swag, hat, t shirts, like you name it. He loves it. He knows every word. He says he's come up with, like, all of these, daydreams or, visions or creative, Connections in his mind. Like he makes up like basically music videos in his mind for the different songs and how they make him feel and all of this stuff, which is really cool.

Donny: 10:14

That's cool that he has like this vision part associated with the music, too. Cause I've heard stories of people that are like, Yeah, sometimes I'll listen to music, and it just completely transports me. I had one friend tell me that he started seeing colors, like a spectrum. He was traveling, I was like, You were hallucinating? He's like, yeah, I was in an airplane. Completely sober. Just like enjoying the music, when we listen to music, a lot of times we're multitasking. And I think when you're traveling. That's where you might listen to music different, when you're not driving, because even when you're driving, you're using parts of your brain that are navigating you, but maybe in an airplane or something where you really have nothing else better to do but to close your eyes and actually listen from a different perspective. And he had, that happen. I was like, I didn't know that was a thing. And you said, your son starts seeing things and imagining things. I guess that, fits. Maybe the imagined dragons. He started seeing dragons

Jay: 11:05

first. Strictly Dragons.

Donny: 11:06

just just dragons, by the way. Yeah,

Jay: 11:09

Only

Donny: 11:09

Yeah. I think that's really cool, man. Baby Donnie, like, When I started putting certain songs on, there was one song that came on. I was listening to a vinyl record. It was on the Beach Boys Sunflower album. His eyes opened and he started to look around. This is before he could like really lift up his head. And I was like, oh, he's moving, you know? He was just like, where is that coming from? I put on different a different song and like a different song and I put on that song again You know try to a b test this a little bit and same reaction I was like, what is it about this song? And I think I like narrowed it down. There's like this, the syphone sound, it's like a twinkly, Timbre. It's, uh, interesting how, like the type of sound. Influences his reaction too. So I was like what is it about this instrument,

Jay: 11:54

yeah, that's interesting. Especially when you're at an age where you can take away, all of these external factors of like culture and like popularity and coolness and trends and all of this stuff, like that's stripped back when you're one. And so you just biologically inherently like it. And so there's likely some sort of temperament and biological connection to those sounds that, you know is passed on evolutionarily. And so it's like difficult to ascertain, yeah, but why? Like, why is it this? But you know, we still, I mean, as humans, we probably find the sound of a xylophone, far more pleasant and bright and happy than we would a chainsaw. So like I would imagine there's something. Biological there, although I wouldn't be able to trace exactly what it is.

Donny: 12:42

What's your theory to that? What do you think it doesn't have to be

Jay: 12:45

to be accurate but

Donny: 12:46

like if you were to if you were to guess, would be

Jay: 12:48

it will be guessing. Yeah, My guess is that it would probably, follow the same evolutionary, biological through lines that, get passed down to us, so I would say like, evolution doesn't happen at conception, right? Like, so evolution is something that's happening as we speak, every, every moment is, of us, we're evolving. It's like it actually an interesting thought to think about like the micro evolution that occurs between having kids when you're 19 or having kids when you're like I did when you're 36, there is actually a slight probable, I'm guessing it was going to be slight difference in this, not to get gross, but the sperm, right? It's going to be like ever so slightly evolved. Hopefully for the better, And

Donny: 13:29

a fine wine

Jay: 13:30

yeah, just like that. And, I would say that. Even as an adult, it's not like we grow up and we hear a xylophone and we like cover our ears and duck and cover, right? We hear a xylophone. And I would say, fine wine actually is an interesting thing to bring up here because like our tastes do evolve. They typically mature. It's have you ever noticed like the candy that old people eat is gross, but like when you're a kid, you would never touch like grandpa's weird candy because it tastes like ginger and like bitter and like crazy. You know what I mean? It's like same thing like my son thinks it's insane that I drink coffee and I remember thinking That coffee was putrid like that like when I was younger too, right? And then eventually I evolved to drink coffee every day. And I love the taste of coffee now Same thing happens with like cheeses and wines and like all kinds of stuff. It's very rare for Someone who's very young, a child to enjoy, I would say more complex variations of almost anything. And I'm going to imagine that would translate into music as well. So like a xylophone sound is almost like the auditory equivalent of a skittle. Where like my son is like, yo, Skittles rip, right? But if I have like two skittles, I kind of get over it and I'm like, yeah, it just tastes like corn syrup to me. Right. But then, I want like some weird seared sea bass. You know what I mean? With like, I don't want to be like something nuts, like, like just some like crazy, like thing where he would look at that and be like, you couldn't pay me a million dollars to eat a sea bass, even though we might evolve out of these more like simple. Derivatives of taste in a weird way. We'll say auditory taste. And we typically like. Pop punk's a great example, right? Teenagers and dudes in their 20s love pop punk, but like, I'm 43 years old. Like I can't put on like a, I can't put on a record made by like 17 year olds anymore I'm too busy listening to like complex, dark, like You know non diatonic passing tone Post metal, you know like something like in insane the world. Like yes, this goes well with my seabass, whereas like if you're young your son is like I fucking love skittles and imagine dragons Took such

Donny: 15:49

that's why it's so funny, because it makes so much sense. I just see what type of, like a day to remember or something, or like, you know, like going with, going like at a fine dining restaurant, like playing in the background

Jay: 16:01

they're yeah, it's quiet. And I

Donny: 16:05

Oh man, that's really cool actually. And I think you're right. To go back to the xylophone, like the way it sounds so bright. And tinny almost, it is like sugar, I wonder if a kid would just love like an ensemble or

Jay: 16:17

or like a

Donny: 16:18

of these bells.

Jay: 16:19

I think they would like it if you kept it in major scale and if you even inside of the major scale you didn't Add to like because even inside of the major scale There's like sevenths and things that are like a little bit darker than let's say a fifth, right? But So if you kept it in like the brighter side of major scale, I think you would probably, you'd probably be more popular with four year olds, but I think if you took a chromatic approach to xylophone, it could sound like terrible to someone with a less refined palate. Cause I think as I get older and somehow I'm still, I started a new band and I'm still writing music, like I'm. Basically always like finding myself more interested in leaning on, the wrong notes these days, right? Like leading the ear with a minor third to start. But then diminishing the root, which is half step out of key, but I use it as a passing tone to get to somewhere that will resolve afterwards. And like in doing so, You give like the listener this moment of discomfort, but it's all about the tension and release of using wrong notes in quote the right way so that people are like, Whoa, that felt, Whoa. That's your sea bass. But like your, orchestra of xylophones Yeah, if the melodic composition was that of a skittle, right? The period of time in my life where I thought real big fish was musical excellence it was I have no disrespect to the fish but like it was scott It was horns and it was bright and it was major scale and it's You know what? It was upbeat and fun and all of that stuff the period of my life like if you had played me I don't know converge or something. I would have been like Nope. Like the no, no way. You know what I mean? But it just, I don't know. I just think it's that evolution that we just, we learn, right? Like a xylophone major scale, we learn that stuff. And at some point that's new and it's exciting and it feels good. It's easier for us to accept, but then we get bored or now what?

Donny: 18:16

Why is the interval of frequencies like how frequent they occur? Why is that even relevant in our emotions like that you know this I think it goes back to maybe like an evolutionary thing like you were saying

Jay: 18:28

like it's instinctual No it is it absolutely is and you know I mean there's like People who think that A should not be 440 Hz, there's people who think A should be, 432 Hz because of the way 432 Hz vibrates water versus the way 440 Hz vibrates water, and given that we are made of quite a bit of water in that, like that, that we would find 432, like a nicer resonant, for an, a than 440. And I actually, I've heard these people are absolutely psychopaths in my opinion, but I've heard of people tune down to, 8 cents down from 440 to 432, and then write all their music with a 432 as opposed to a 440.

Donny: 19:12

There's like a whole Spotify playlist that you can look up of recordings that were done at 432 and there, there are conspiracies

Jay: 19:18

around

Donny: 19:19

as well. that you can read into.

Jay: 19:20

Yeah, i'm sure

Donny: 19:21

Do you think that when we have these deep connections with music. Outside of maybe like a one year old, but more like your Nirvana times and maybe even now, like when you resonate with music, do you think it's more towards like the instrument

Jay: 19:34

side or the lyrics? not lyrics for me, I think it's lyrics for most, having made thousands of records now, like I am fully aware how important the lyrics and the delivery of said lyrics are. It makes and breaks everything. Like you should have great performances and great instrumental and great composition and all that stuff but usually in most western music that is in service to the vocal and subsequently in service to the lyrics people are well, understandably a little bit egocentric and self centered when they come to emotionally identifying with music. Usually the age for me for where people are like really developing like this deep connection with music that's going to last them maybe most of their life in terms of. Lyrical. Reception or like connection with the lyrics. They're usually at a stage in their life where they've not yet finished developing what they're going to consider their identity. They're still searching for who they are to some extent. And they're also young and naive enough to think that like their human existence is so unique, which is probably not true. Probably Jimmy from the football team cheated on you, just like Jimmy from the football team cheated on the other girl in the town next door and now you're broken hearted

Donny: 21:24

Yeah.

Jay: 21:24

right? And and then so

Donny: 21:26

Taylor Swift, and you're like, This is for me!

Jay: 21:29

is for me, right? I wonder about these like older songwriters too, who like, understand this. If you want people to emotionally resonate with the lyrics that you are singing, you should talk about them. And so if you're talking about them, they are likely, naive, egotistical, inexperienced enough to think that wow, I can't believe I found music. That's about my exact situation, right? It'll be very me focused. I think through lyrics, that is how many people, particularly if they're not musicians, they're not overly interested in composition. I don't know why and I know a few people like me, but lyrics are last for me and I would be guessing again to understand why but for me I'm really in it for the sonic aesthetic and the performances and the chances taken it's just that I started playing music when I was 11 or 12, that was important to me. Like when I hear instrumentals, right, I'm an instrumentalist. So then what's in it for me? It's more of the instrumental composition side of things than it is the lyrical side of things. It's just the presentation and the mood and the vibe and like I listen to a lot of instrumental music too, I think, which would also obviously showcase the fact that lyrics are not forefront for me.

Donny: 22:44

I always

Jay: 22:45

think of the Beatles,

Donny: 22:45

have you heard of those guys?

Jay: 22:47

No, is that a band?

Donny: 22:48

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think they were really focused on the lyrics so much, and to me, I'm like, that's just a proof of concept but yeah, it's, I don't think music doesn't, the lyrics don't have to be there.

Jay: 22:58

There's all kinds of songs that like prove your point. Which is we could go right to like a scat man, that's just a memorable bunch of crap. But maybe like a caveat on your point would be that, regardless of the meaning in the words themselves, I think though that lyrical intelligibility, or at least melody plus lyrical intelligibility is important. We could take that song, Cake, like I don't think anyone's like really resonating with like, he's going for distance. He's going for speed, but everyone knows it. And everyone's going to be a lemming if that song comes on. Or like Harvey Danger, paranoia, right? Everyone's going to do that too. It's just, I think about the simplistic memorability combined with the music that just turns into earworms in people's brains.

Donny: 23:40

Do you have a moment? Where you ever listened to something and it made you cry or it made you like so emotional It was an experience. You want

Jay: 23:49

You want to share something

Donny: 23:50

that may have occurred there?

Jay: 23:51

deep. Okay. Yeah, Uh, yeah, no question. On many occasions, probably too many to count. You brought up airplanes. There's something about. And I don't know if it's just like the subconscious slash conscious fact that I know that I'm in a weird tin can in the sky that we're just spitting in the face of God at all times here that like when I just feel like more emotionally, accessible, I feel like, I don't know what it is. If I watch him, for example, if I watch a movie on a plane, It can not even be like that sad, but I'll get like real, like emotional about it. I don't know why it's just a phenomena. If anyone else has had that phenomena that I'm interested, but, so that can happen, that can heighten things for sure. On a personal note, this one of course would make me cry. There's this bank called transit. That was part of the pop punk scene. And I actually have a tattoo for my buddy, Tim, that I don't think you're doing a video here, but it's on my arm. And, He died from an overdose and his family and his band members asked me to posthumously produce Tim's last record, which was really tough to do. His family gave us his computers, his laptop and his iMac. His girlfriend got us in with the passwords. His ex girlfriend got us in with the passwords. We had to take all the data. He had A ton of songs, we had to take all of that data and we had to then take everything from Tim because Tim's gone that we could. We had to take all Tim's guitar parts we could use. We took tempo map them. We had to take all the lyrics, put everything in place. And then here at my studio, we built the record around everything from Tim that we could take. So it was really emotional to start, right? Cause it's a new project that's emotional in and of itself, like given the context of the project, but also as I was finishing it, like it was really emotional, there's a lot of pressure too, cause it's like this is the last thing anyone's ever going to hear from Tim, right? I knew like at some point, like his dad is going to put this on. And like, I'm directly contributing to. The last words like this father will ever hear from his son. Bro, like when I was mixing that thing, like I could go mix it for an hour or two and then I gotta put it down. I just got to, I, I just be mixing and crying at the same time. What a combo.

Donny: 26:01

What was his position in the band?

Jay: 26:03

In cold collective. He was primary songwriter and lead vocalist

Donny: 26:08

okay, so his vocal was there

Jay: 26:10

Yeah, and here's the really the thing that would absolutely just crush you because i've been friends with tim since tim was 14 years old and it's Yes, it's the vocal and yes, it's the vocal performance But i've heard tim do that a million times the things that like really got to me was like The little him talking to himself because he never thought anyone was going to hear like these were demos in his bedroom that he never thought anyone's going to hear it. The him talking to himself, like giving himself a hard time about the last take him clearing his voice, the humanity aspects of it that weren't performative were really hard to hear too, cause I felt like. I was doing the right thing because the family asked me to, and I think Tim probably would be okay with me doing what I was doing here. I also felt like a little intrusive and a little voyeuristic in the fact that I know that Tim didn't ever think I was going to hear this, or anyone would ever hear this. And now we've chosen, like it came out on Rise Records, right? Like we've chosen to put this like out, and there was a little bit of an emotional conflict there, but overall it did seem like the right thing to do. But yeah, uh, you know, and plus it, and it wasn't like, it wasn't like, Hey Jay, do you want to do this thing? You have no idea who this person is, but just so you know, it's like a really sad story. It was like, Hey Jay, do you want to do this thing for a really close friend of yours who died suddenly? Yeah. It was nuts.

Donny: 27:31

I can add,

Jay: 27:32

that

Donny: 27:32

record in the show notes. Um, okay, cool. I'd love for people to listen to that. That's a really interesting project.

Jay: 27:44

Is great and it just hits when you know the context, it's crazy, it hits so much harder. Speaking of lyrics like there's songs on there where it's very clear That tim is singing about his struggles with addiction that you can hear him Battling it's just, it's this crazy view into somebody in the throes of their struggles and knowing they didn't win, but every yeah, it's a tragedy. Tim asked me to do this record while he was alive, but I told him I wouldn't do it until he got sober. And so he just kept cutting demos and demos waiting to get sober so we could do the record together.

Donny: 28:26

I think the fact that it, that this was the outcome of that is, is more of a positive, turn to the story. I wonder if that's going to resonate with other people sharing the same experience, though.

Jay: 28:36

People do reach out to me from time to time, about them resonating with that, knowing the context of the record. And my friend Bill Fulkerson did a documentary about Tim and about this too. I went to the opening, the premiere of the documentary. Here's a crazy thing, dude. Like I went to the F I've went to the friends and family one first. I've seen it twice. And Tim's dad sits down next to me after the doc, and he's just like, his words literally were you're the man. And I was like, thanks dude. And knowing that I'm a father myself and can't even just imagine what he's going through. And it was really nice of him because. When you're making something like that, you're just terrified all I could think about the whole time I was making it as a father is what Tim's father was going to think. And so it was really emotional. It was like really overwhelming and relieving and crazy all at the same time. Just when Tim's dad, I saw him walking over to me, at the friends and family showing, And I was so nervous. Bill did the first screening of the documentary. I was there and people flew out from all, all over across the country. And, there's people who have struggled with the similar addiction that were there, and I got to talk to them and so when we were talking to, before the podcast started about doing things that I classify crudely as deathbed like things that are like. Going to be emotionally impactful or positive for humanity and things we're actually going to care about. Like when we're at sort of like the end of our own personal road, For me, it's important to do as much of that stuff as possible. And this is a, that was a big one for me.

Donny: 30:08

yeah, I touched on earlier with my dad, music was his legacy, by taking on that work and doing that project, that's a legacy thing, that, that would outlive you, that's what's so interesting about music, is that it transcends time. And it outlives us. Steve Albini always spoke about this. Man, did he have the right mindset. With music, has there ever been a coincidence?

Jay: 30:30

I don't know if I have anything exactly like that. I can say that music has been. influential. When I met Jesse, my wife, we have a huge shared connection. A lot of the music that she listened to and loved I produced, but we didn't know each other. So she has these experiences where she like thinks back to. Moments in her life and she's listening to this thing, and she has no idea, it was produced by who would become her husband and father of her child, if you want to go like, really down the rabbit hole, you could speculate or wonder, There's an aspect to my personality. There's an aspect to my delivery into my taste into all of this stuff as, as producers, like in a weird way, our work is a showcase of who we are. She was also before meeting me attracted to my work. You wonder if there's like a through line there between something to the fact that it's like, she didn't know that, but she liked that. And then she meets me, she likes me. And like, is there a thing there?

Donny: 31:33

I think long term relationships, there's like this undertone of ethics and morals, there's a deep trust there. And I think your work ethic, actually speaks of who you are. Anytime where you felt like you've been, Soundtracked, like something was happening And then something came on and you're just like, Yep,

Jay: 31:50

yeah, maybe a little bit my wife and I we got like really into a very two different coins here but Pianos Become the Teeth had a record called Keep You, that we still absolutely love. The 10 year anniversary is actually coming out very soon. And that one will show up in fun places for us at times, but obviously that's not you're not going to hear Pianos Become the Teeth at the grocery store. As much as that would be fun to watch. But, something that does seem to pop up is very early on, we I don't know if we would make it like our song, but like it was a thing that we felt, I don't know, represented us at the time was like, Leon Bridges. And it was, coming, the coming home record. She was living in Australia and I was living in Boston, like when we first met and there was an aspect to like the, Just like, you're the only one. And I'm coming home. Like, for us, that's how it felt like when we had to do the traveling. For when she would come out and visit and, I'd keep her here for as long as I could before the visa ran out. And mind you, we only did a couple of those before, I was just like, we just have to get married,

Donny: 32:51

yeah, no more of this.

Jay: 32:52

Um,

Donny: 32:53

anyone ever shared with you? They say like dude, I've I just started crying, or I just, I had this deep emotional reaction to

Jay: 33:02

to something that you

Donny: 33:03

together. What was the story that they

Jay: 33:04

they shared with you? I, yeah, I have too many. To count which is a blessing. I produced a record for cali mossi, which is K a l i space m a s i. They're from chicago. Laughs is the name of the record, but the song is called still life. And, there's a passage at the end of the song that is, really emotional. So the song is effectively about Sam, the front man, he had a friend and that friend, And that's what that song is about. And at the end, there's like a gratitude recognition buildup where he's just talking about. The feelings, but then all of these different fixtures and people and acknowledging them in a way. And when he was recording it, I was sitting right where I'm sitting now, and he was behind the glass. I cried when he was recording it because I was just like, Jesus Christ, Sam, this is like amazing. It was just like unbelievable. And then, I, I showed it, the record to my drummer, Andy. And he was just sitting at our kitchen table and he was just listening to it with his headphones on. I knew exactly what part of the record he was at. So I'm washing the dishes and I look over there and he's in tears. And I was like, I think I know exactly what you're listening to right now. And, yeah, that happens and I've just been, I've been lucky man, to do as many records as I have. I guess it's a function of my hard work too, but you travel and you're on tour. Defeater did Warped Tour, and there'd be lots of times where I'd just be at our merch tent, hanging out and somebody who would look like a little younger, sheepish, would come up and just hand me an envelope and go, I wrote this for you. And you're like, Oh, uh, thanks. It's pages, handwritten pages of how important, like what I've written or worked on, whatever is to them and how much it's meant in a specific time, a hardship in their life that they got through, whatever. And I used to keep those in my guitar case. So I would have That little like side slot, in my hard show case where you're supposed to keep your strap and maybe some extra strings and stuff. I would, but under that there's a little flat, I would fold all of these letters up. And so every time, every show before we played, I'd have to open my guitar case, and I would see the letters, it was immensely powerful for me because then don't get me wrong, you, and when you're doing six months. doing 150 plus shows a year, right? They can kind of turn into like a conveyor belt. But when you open up your guitar case and you have these handwritten letters that are from people that you've emotionally impacted in a positive way, to the point where they wrote this on paper, found you in real life and handed this to you in person. Like it, It was does wonders for you not taking this like wonderful cool thing you get to do for granted And it really puts like a different kind of energy and maybe pep into your step on like The performance you're about to do let's make sure we do a really good job tonight because this isn't just about this one show This is about what this can mean and how this can transfer on to others A record that Defeater did, was intended to be a criticism of some of the social and racial politics that surrounded, minorities in this country. And basically like sending them off to war and then coming home and not having rights. And so I had thought that for the release of our. Followed it. I was like, let's put our money where our mouth is. We did a special pre order shirt and we donated, Which was supposed to be taken as a humanitarian donation. We donated to people who came home and weren't getting the support that they needed, that had PTSD. So through the press release, something was worded wrong, apparently, and it came off not how we intended to say the least. And We played a fest called fluff fest, and I think 2012 in the Czech Republic. And the, there's 4, 000 people there, many of which were protesting us specifically, and they had to lock like gates behind the stage and had to have a security guard on stage. People were throwing bottles at us and swiping for my feet and screaming, at me. Yeah. But there was also people there, who understood what we, what our intention was and knew that, we meant the best for it. The funny thing is, right. Like we could have just like, kept all the t shirt money, to, yeah, No good deed, goes unpunished a hundred percent. And so at the end of the show, someone comes up to me and, just handed me, This weird set of keys and it was like there was five keys and there's five people in the band and He it was hard because it was like broken English, but he basically inferred that like these keys were meaningful to him I wish I got the story better I just knew these keys were meaningful to him and that like these keys represented the members of the band and he wanted us to Have these keys and so that's another thing I kept in my case as well. It was just like Those keys along with the letters and anyway, just all of these different moments where Even when there was a language barrier, we're just like clear that there was like Something much deeper than just like making art for myself and putting it out there and getting to play some shows and doing this stuff and like where There's a guy out there who i'm the guy he handed the keys to and not meant a ton to him And you know just keep it forever

Donny: 38:21

That's wild. So many people resonate with so many different things, but what's unique, I think to, your music is the genre. Do you think there's an affiliation or like some sort of connection between the style of music and all these notes that you're getting?

Jay: 38:35

I think the draw for people in this, especially for these like darker, more impassioned, melodic, but heavy I think it probably is an auditory representation of a bit of melancholic angst that some of us share, it would be safe to say that my childhood, would make one hell of a documentary, I have in my history, We'll call it a far less than ideal start. My dad never understood the music and my, my dad and my relationship has been challenged at times. And sometimes for decades, we're in a good spot now. But when he came and saw us, he saw the connection with the people knowing every word and he saw like this like embodiment of this emotional connection and output it's not uncommon for when someone grows up with a decent amount of traumatic experience, of which we would wish on no one. And you have to deal with that. Especially at the ages, those we talked about, puberty and testosterone and these angsty ages where we're charged up. On the best of days, and you combine that with unresolved trauma and a lack of, frontal cortex development and a lack of wisdom and a lack of independence. So it's easy to think that this is how life is and will be. And, so yeah, you're angry. And, so it's it's difficult to resonate with things that don't unblind with us emotionally. And so that's why we listened to the music that we listened to. And so for myself, and I think for many other people who find themselves here, I'm not saying everyone, but, it. isn't surprising that we might share things of that nature. And without naming names, as I get closer to the vocalists and the people in the bands that I work with, I find it pretty commonly that we are able to, resonate on some unfortunate levels.

Donny: 40:35

To go back to just the healing aspect. It's an outlet. Like when you go to these shows, afterwards you probably just feel like

Jay: 40:41

like, so much better

Donny: 40:42

what are those rooms where you go in and just, boom? You pay to break stuff, I just, I think it's just so special that you came up from this upbringing and you were able to, Still find a way to turn it into such a positive outcome

Jay: 40:54

for other

Donny: 40:55

and you have the physical notes to prove that too. If your music could send one message

Jay: 40:59

message to the world,

Donny: 41:01

what

Jay: 41:01

what would it be? Oh my god, big question. Try to, try to think in shades of gray, and I mean that in the sense that, There's these binary styles of right and wrong lead us to harboring, resentments like indefinitely. And that's really a tax on ourselves in that if we can admit that we ourselves are fallible and always will be, and that everyone else is in the same boat, all of a sudden. We don't other people as much and we offer at least a modicum, if not an immense amount of empathy to our fellow humans and try to put ourselves in their shoes and understand, that while the things that happened to us can be painful and challenging, they didn't come from nowhere. And one of the. hardest, but most empowering things we can do is to have patience, empathy, and goodwill ultimately towards those that we feel have done us a disservice. And that's how I try to live my life, and when I write music, and with the vocalists and stuff we choose to bring into the bands. For me, it's about humanizing everyone, regardless of how much you might disagree with them, or how much their actions may have not been in your favor.

Donny: 42:36

What's cool about the thing that you said, and I think what's the theme of this podcast is, it, looks at music and the human experience,

Jay: 42:44

Yeah.

Donny: 42:45

If I were to do an episode, and publish it, and I, I would send you a text message

Jay: 42:50

saying, Jay, I did it. I did this episode.

Donny: 42:53

What would be the one I text you about? Could be a guest, could be a

Jay: 42:55

be a theme, Of this podcast that I'm trying to build here.

Donny: 43:08

Or I'm going to get imagine dragons too. Yeah. I'd be like, Tell me about the song you're

Jay: 43:14

you're listening

Donny: 43:15

when you

Jay: 43:15

you had this vision

Donny: 43:17

and you were imagining strictly these dragons,

Jay: 43:20

You would do, a joint interview between the singer of Imagine Dragons and my son Dean who will be eight in October.

Donny: 43:27

Cool, man. Thanks for hanging out. I appreciate your time. I think what's cool too is a story you shared about that album. Was his name Tim?

Jay: 43:33

Tim Landers.

Donny: 43:35

That's the cool thing about music man. It's it's published, how long ago was that published?

Jay: 43:40

I want to say that record probably came out in 2021, around there.

Donny: 43:43

Okay, this wasn't too long ago. But it's like years later, it's still gonna come to light. Like it's a brand new thing. And then people listening to this episode, Years later, it'll come up again, it's cool that music has that ability to just keep popping up like it's a brand new fresh thing, you know? Yeah, awesome. Do you will enjoy hanging out with your son and riding bikes and, living the dream?

Jay: 44:05

You got it, man. I will.

Donny: 44:07

Thanks, Jason.

44:12

Sort of like a ghost story. Sound can carry the whispers. of those who have passed. Leaving behind something that can still live in us. though. And that's music. So if you get to tune into cold collectives weather, vane album, remember you're not just hearing songs. You're experiencing a legacy. Uh, soul carried through every note. So thank you for tuning in today and going on this journey with me. If you guys want to support this podcast, all you have to do is navigate to the rating section of whatever app you're using right now. Drop those five stars. It's free and it's the best thing you can do to help right now. And if you want to reach out, to me, just text me. There's a link in the show notes. All right. I look forward to having you on the next journey. And like always. Keep listening.